If you would have asked me how to prove the Trinity from the Scripture one week ago I might have had a tough time, but recently I have been reading Robert Reymond Systematic Theology and I have seen how OBVIOUS it is in scripture.
This is a short logical argument with premises that necessarily lead to the conclusion of the trinity. There is one God,(Deut 6:4) Jesus is God, (Obviously shown in all scripture especially the gospel of John) The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4 Lie to the Holy Spirit is a lie to God) The Father is God (Jesus testifies to him being God again and again.) Yet they exhibit different personalities, Submit to one another, (the Son the Father and the Spirit to the Father and Son) Converse with each other and manifest themselves differently. Therefore there is ONE God, but three persons. A complex being unlike any earthly creature.
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I may have to read that, since I would be unsure of how to discuss that aspect.
Greetings David Dykstra
On the subject of the Trinity,
I recommend this video:
The Human Jesus
Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you to reconsider "The Trinity"
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
Adam, If you wish engage in a discussion concerning what the Bible says about the nature of God and his divine son Jesus Christ I would be happy to do so in hope of persuading you to the truth. Here are several passages that point to Christ's divinity, Acts 10:36, John 20:28,Romans 14:11+Philippians 2:10-11.
I am fully convinced of the truth of God's word and the Doctrine of the Trinity expressed there and I will not blaspheme my God, Yahweh by "prayerfully" "reconsidering" what the Word of my LORD and God clearly states. Nor should you blaspheme him by claiming to be "in Messiah" when you have rejected Christ and his word. Confess your sins and turn to him or you will perish.
Sure, David, we can have a discussion.
However, please first watch the video,
The Human Jesus
(It discusses John 20.28, Phil 2.)
That way, you will see my point of view & then we can proceed with the discussion.
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
The Human Jesus
Adam, thanks for your willingness to have a discussion. Here are some guidelines for our discussion.
1.Scripture shall be the ultimate standard appealed to. (If you take issue with this, say so, but then the doctrine of the Trinity and Christ's divine nature shouldn't be our battleground)
2.I would suggest that we present the arguments ourselves. (Just as I will not be asking you to spend two hours reading Systematic Theology on Christ's divine nature, I would rather not spend two hours watching this movie.) Besides it is you who is attacked my position, rather than me attacking your position.
3. The Resolution we will debate is this: Jesus Christ who was prophesied in the Old Testament, and came in the New Testament, was not a mere human, but a Divine member of the Trinity.
4. I will present my first argument affirming the Resolution. Then you can present your first argument negating the Resolution, and we will alternate back and forth.
5. Do not blaspheme the true Messiah, the all powerful LORD Jesus Christ by claiming to be "in Messiah," when the "Messiah" whom you claim to serve is a mere human.
If you have any other guidelines to add, just mention them, and I will consider them. Or if you take issue with my first guideline, we will redirect the focus of our debate.
I will go ahead and post my first affirmative argument after this post.
Jesus Christ who was prophesied in the Old Testament, and came in the New Testament, was not a mere human, but a Divine member of the Trinity.
Firstly let me clarify the resolution.
While Christ was and is not a mere human, in the incarnation he did take on a human nature. Matt. 1:23 '“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”' and Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Therefore our debate is not over whether or not Christ had a human nature. (I readily confess he did come in the flesh). But whether or not he had a divine nature.(Which I also readily confess). As proof of this I will present many scriptures that indicate his divinity, others that CONCLUSIVELY indicate his divinity, and yet others that in the context of other scriptures DEMAND his divinity.
Psalm 110:1 "The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”"
This strongly indicates the divinity of Christ, for if David's (who wrote this Psalm) calls one of his descendants Lord, it indicates that he is no mere human. And why does the LORD exalt a mere creature?
Ps. 110:4 The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
This is still speaking of Christ. If he is a priest FOREVER, it indicates he is alive already and is eternal.
Isaiah 8:9 “ Be shattered, O you peoples, and be broken in pieces!
Give ear, all you from far countries.
Gird yourselves, but be broken in pieces;
Gird yourselves, but be broken in pieces.
10 Take counsel together, but it will come to nothing;
Speak the word, but it will not stand,
For God is with us.”
This passage ending with the statement "for God is with us," as the reason why these things will happen is very similar to Ps. 2 where it says the it is the LORD's Son, his annointed who will dash the nation, like a potters vessel.
Psalm 2, "1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break[a] them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”
As you can see, Isaiah 8 and Psalm 2 are obviously related, yet one says "For God is with us" and the other ‘You are My Son,' indicating that the Son of God is God himself!
1 Peter 2 quotes the old testament concerning Christ
1 Peter 2:8“ Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
“ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
8 and
“ A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
Yet this last quoted passage was used in Isaiah 8 as a reference to God!
Isaiah 8:13 The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow;
Let Him be your fear,
And let Him be your dread.
14 He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble;
They shall fall and be broken.
I am BARELY scratching the surface, yet it is clear that Jesus Christ, the Anointed Savior, the Son of God, is divine.
I had to publish my comment in two because of the character limit.
Greetings David
It appears that you have misunderstood me.
I am indeed willing to discuss these issues with you, however, on the basis that you had watched the video first; that way, you had seen my point of view, and we could proceed from there.
Therefore, if you are not willing to watch the video, then I bid you good day, and I'll be on my way.
However, seeing that you have already posted your first argument, I will quickly address your points before moving on.
1. Scripture shall be the ultimate standard appealed to.
Amen!!
2. ... Besides it is you who is attacked my position ...
Sorry, that you see it as an attack. It was simply meant to be a recommendation to watch a video which addresses the subject of the trinity. I don't see where there is any attack in my previous posts?
5. Do not blaspheme the true Messiah, the all powerful LORD Jesus Christ by claiming to be "in Messiah," when the "Messiah" whom you claim to serve is a mere human.
It's sad how you view my claim to be "in Messiah". You are welcome to your opinion, however, it is to my own master that I standeth or falleth. And GOD is able to make me stand.
[Rom 14.4,10]
On the point of the Messiah/Christ being human, I will let the Scriptures answer:
(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ...
(Rom 5:15) ... For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by
one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(1 Cor 15:21-22) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ/Messiah shall all be made alive.
Think about it. Would Paul compare Adam with Almighty GOD? Esp. in light of Isa 40.18, 46.5?
No! To Paul:
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ/Messiah Jesus;
Concerning the clarification of your resolution:
Coincidentally, on the subject of Christ having a divine nature in addition to a human nature, I had placed 3 posts about this on my blog for the month of August.
By all means, have a read of them at THE DOCTRINE OF THE DUAL NATURE OF CHRIST
Also, if you wish to know what we mean by the divinity of Christ or Christ being divine, please see Christian (Biblical) Unitarians believe in the Divinity of Christ
Now, Isa 7.14 & Psalm 110.1 are classic cases why I asked you to watch the video.
That way, I need not reiterate points that have already been discussed in the video.
Both of these verses are adequately addressed in the video, plus the meaning of the word 'Lord' in Psalm 110.1. I will simply add the following 5 points:
a) Both Psalm 110.1 & 4 are prophetic i.e. these verses were to be fulfilled in the future.; i.e. see Acts 2.34-36 and the Book of Hebrews.
b) By definition, Almighty GOD cannot be exalted because He is Almighty GOD.
Who can possibly exalt Almighty GOD?? And make Him any higher than or greater than, He already is??
Therefore, for one to be exalted in the context of Psalm 110, implies that such a one is not Almighty GOD!!
c) Concerning Psalm 110.4, please note:
(Heb 5:1) For every high priest taken from among men ... Christ is a high priest taken from among men, a honor that he did not take to himself. Rather, he was called of GOD!
[Heb 5.1,4-6,10]
d) Think about it? How can GOD be a priest?
By definition, Can Almighty GOD be a high priest to Almighty GOD??
Surely, only an inferior being who is not GOD, can possibly be a priest, and minister of GOD, ministering in things pertaining to GOD!
[Heb 2.17, 5.1]
e) Also Hebrews 1.1-2 makes it very that the Son was not alive in OT times. GOD only spoke unto us by a Son in these last days i.e. NT times.
Hence, Jesus was not begotten/conceived yet in OT times, much less alive.
Psa 2.7 is addressed in the video.
Concerning 1 Peter 2, for the context, please read verse 6 (& Isaiah 28.16)
(1 Pet 2:6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
GOD did not lay Himself! Rather, He laid a chief corner stone, which turned out to be,
His Son, Jesus the Messiah. As Paul said, (1 Cor 3:11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
So as GOD's agent and representative, the Messiah is that chief corner stone, that stone of stumbling, that rock of offense.
Theologically, it's called agency.
So, David, if you decide to view the video, after doing so, by all means contact me (you can get my email address via my profile), and I will gladly continue the discussion.
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
The Human Jesus
Adam,
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I perceived your stipulation of watching the video first, as a mere request, and I apologize. Yet, don't assume I don't know were you're coming from. I have viewed your blog and read several articles from it. (I'm a reader not a viewer.) Still, one of my stipulations for this discussions was that we keep the arguments confined to this blog. Just as I will not ask you to read a 50 page section from a Systematic Theology on the Trinity, so I will not be watching two hour movies as substitutes for your arguments. Therefore if you wish to leave you may leave, but if you wish to have a discussion, great! (This is what I said in my first comment.) But since you have already posted your first negative argument, I will address it anyways.
"On the point of the Messiah/Christ being human, I will let the Scriptures answer:"
Let's stop right there. We are agreed that Christ came as a human.
(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ...
(Rom 5:15) ... For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by
one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(1 Cor 15:21-22) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ/Messiah shall all be made alive.
These verses are not proof for the your position that Christ was ONLY human. They are merely proof of what we already agree on. That Christ was human.
"Think about it. Would Paul compare Adam with Almighty GOD? Esp. in light of Isa 40.18, 46.5?"
You have taken these verses out of context. Specifically the Isaiah 46.5 passages, is in the midst of a comparison of the power of God to the weakness of Idols.
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ/Messiah Jesus;
Again this verse proves nothing except what we agree on. Christ was Human.
"I will simply add the following 5 points:
a) Both Psalm 110.1 & 4 are prophetic i.e. these verses were to be fulfilled in the future.;
i.e. see Acts 2.34-36 and the Book of Hebrews."
True, Ps. 110 was prophetic, yet Christ was the Lord of David at the time of the writing.
"By definition, Almighty GOD cannot be exalted because He is Almighty GOD.
Who can possibly exalt Almighty GOD?? And make Him any higher than or greater than, He already is??
Therefore, for one to be exalted in the context of Psalm 110, implies that such a one is not Almighty GOD!!"
Since Christ in obedience to the Father had humbled himself, The Father has exalted him and is putting the nations under his feet. Can God not glorify and exalt HIMSELF?
"Concerning Psalm 110.4, please note:
(Heb 5:1) For every high priest taken from among men ... Christ is a high priest taken from among men, a honor that he did not take to himself. Rather, he was called of GOD!
[Heb 5.1,4-6,10]
d) Think about it? How can GOD be a priest?
By definition, Can Almighty GOD be a high priest to Almighty GOD??
Surely, only an inferior being who is not GOD, can possibly be a priest, and minister of GOD, ministering in things pertaining to GOD!"
Here you are begging the question. You are assuming that since (according to you) God is one person (not three) that he can not be his own high priest. But since God is three person, Christ (who is one person of the Godhead) CAN be high priest. (Do you understand that Christ did not merely fill the role of High priest. Rather the position of High priest was a tool which pointed to it's ultimate fulfillment in Christ.)
"e) Also Hebrews 1.1-2 makes it very that the Son was not alive in OT times. GOD only spoke unto us by a Son in these last days i.e. NT times.
Hence, Jesus was not begotten/conceived yet in OT times, much less alive."
Hebrews 1.1-2 says no such thing. Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
(In fact notice the end. How did God make the worlds through Christ, if Christ didn't exist?)
As to the argument if 1 Peter 2, you did not answer why it is that Isaiah says it is the LORD of Hosts who is the Rock of offense and Peter says it is Christ. As to your argument that God did not lay himself as the Cornerstone, I object. God the Father laid Christ as the Cornerstone. Yet since Christ is one person in the Godhead, God set himself as the Cornerstone. There is no contradiction between that and the scriptures you gave.
In addition to that, you never did address my
Romans 14:11+Philippians 2:10-11 argument.
With that, I will end my second affirmation of the resolution for now. (I may lengthen it if you don't reply).
In addition to all these things, if Christ was not God it would be idolatrous to serve him for it it is written, "You shall love the LORD your God and him only shall you serve."
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